In my case: Russian state is my direct enemy and most likely to invade my country. And would do it if they would consider success likely.
Previous wars with Russia were obnoxious with very bad consequences, so I dislike idea of even very indirectly funding them.
And I support actions that are harmful to Russian economy, also when they are harmful to me - as long as it is not too badly balanced. As this is much cheaper than directly participating in war.
(I am from Poland)
PS
Yes, I understand that at some point there are some indirect effects that you cannot avoid.
I also understand if for some people paying Kagi that pays tiny fraction of that to Yandex that is paying taxes in Russia which funds their wars is too tenuous connection to care.
That's a very interesting turn of conversation. I think you are missing a bit from that story when presenting Poland as a victim[0]:
According to Aviel Roshwald, (Piłsudski) "hoped to incorporate most of the territories of the defunct Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth into the future Polish state by structuring it as the Polish-led, multinational federation." Piłsudski had wanted to break up the Russian Empire and set up the Intermarium federation of various different states: Poland, Lithuania, Belarus, Ukraine and other Central and East European countries that emerged from the crumbling empires after World War I. In Piłsudski's vision, Poland would replace a truncated and vastly reduced Russia as the great power of Eastern Europe. His plan excluded negotiations prior to military victory. <...>
He used military force to expand the Polish borders in Galicia and Volhynia and crush a Ukrainian attempt at self-determination in the disputed territories east of the Curzon Line, which contained a significant Polish minority. On 7 February 1919, Piłsudski spoke on the subject of Poland's future frontiers:
"At the moment Poland is essentially without borders and all that we can gain in this regard in the west depends on the Entente – on the extent to which it may wish to squeeze Germany. In the east, it's a different matter; there are doors here that open and close and it depends on who forces them open and how far".
Polish military forces had thus set out to expand far in the eastern direction. As Piłsudski imagined,
"Closed within the boundaries of the 16th century, cut off from the Black Sea and Baltic Sea, deprived of land and mineral wealth of the South and South-east, Russia could easily move into the status of second-grade power. Poland, as the largest and strongest of the new states, could easily establish a sphere of influence stretching from Finland to the Caucasus".
>that joint invasion of Poland by Russia (Soviet Union) and Germany (Third Reich)
The USSR returned the territory that Poland grabbed in the 1920. And I must remind you that just a year earlier Germany, Hungary and Poland jointly dismembered Czechoslovakia[1]:
Germany had started a low-intensity undeclared war on Czechoslovakia on 17 September 1938. <...> This was followed by Polish and Hungarian territorial demands brought on 21 and 22 September, respectively. <...> Poland grouped its army units near its common border with Czechoslovakia and conducted an unsuccessful probing offensive on 23 September. Hungary moved its troops towards the border with Czechoslovakia, without attacking. The Soviet Union announced its willingness to come to Czechoslovakia's assistance, provided the Red Army would be able to cross Polish and Romanian territory; both countries refused.
<...>
The Munich Agreement was soon followed by the First Vienna Award on 2 November 1938, separating largely Hungarian inhabited territories in southern Slovakia and southern Subcarpathian Rus' from Czechoslovakia. On 30 November, Czechoslovakia ceded to Poland small patches of land in the Spiš and Orava regions.
> I think you are missing a bit from that story when presenting Poland as a victim
And you in turn seem to miss similar quotes from Lenin et all, salivating at subjugation of Poland.
> The USSR returned the territory that Poland grabbed in the 1920
Yes, in 1920 Russia wanted to conquer Poland but failed then. They managed to succeed in cooperation with Nazi Germany.
How that disproves my point that Russian invasions were bad for Poland?
> Czechoslovakia ceded to Poland small patches of land in the Spiš and Orava regions
Yeah, that was footgun though earlier story is also of interest
> provided the Red Army would be able to cross Polish and Romanian territory; both countries refused.
geee, I wonder why (see say Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact that proved such suspicion 100% correct)
If Russia invade in XXI century and they will manage to find some pretext (returning the territory that Poland grabbed in the 1920 or something), how that will make things less bad for Poles?
again, I am not making point that Poland is 1000% innocent and Christ of nations or something. Though if you want to compete on who was less murderous, did less genocides and was less oppressive Russia will not win at all.
>And you in turn seem to miss similar quotes from Lenin et all, salivating at subjugation of Poland.
Enlighten me? Meanwhile I'll remind you that Felix Dzerzhinsky[0], who created the predecessor of KGB for Lenin, was a Pole born in Russian Poland. Vyacheslav Menzhinsky[1], his successor, was a Pole too.
>How that disproves my point that Russian invasions were bad for Poland?
You just don't call what happened around 1920 a Russian invasion, it was yet another Polish attempt at building its own empire that backfired. Especially, if you cite it as a reason for thinking Russia is likely to invade Poland
>geee, I wonder why (see say Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact that proved such suspicion 100% correct)
That's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
If you don't cooperate with USSR against Hitler, having signed non-aggression pact with Hitler just 4 years earlier[2], don't be upset that USSR finally signed its own non-aggression pact with Hitler after years of trying to form an anti-Hitler pact with France and the GB (who cited Poland objections as one of the ways to drag its feet).[3]
I can't recommend enough the article "Fiasco: The Anglo-Franco-Soviet Alliance That Never Was and the Unpublished British White Paper, 1939–1940" [3] with "trilingual, multi-archival evidence" to anyone who wants to understand the reasons for the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact.
>If Russia invade in XXI century and they will manage to find some pretext (returning the territory that Poland grabbed in the 1920 or something), how that will make things less bad for Poles?
Sure, it'll be bad for Poles, just like if Poland burns Moscow once again it will be bad for Russians. But we are not discussing fantasy scenarios?
> Meanwhile I'll remind you that Felix Dzerzhinsky[0], who created the predecessor of KGB for Lenin, was a Pole born in Russian Poland
And? You seem to be commenting like I claimed that Poles are nation of saints.
And from "Bolshevik revolutionary and politician of Polish origin and leader of Soviet secret police" description it is clear he was awful and evil human being.
Letting such person to end in position of authority and create not one secret police but three of them is utter failure of society in which he was living (Russian one).
Though it is noteworthy that likely most evil people of Polish origin (and maybe Poles if they were really Poles) did this in position of authority of Russian state. Not Polish one.
> If you don't cooperate with USSR against Hitler, having signed non-aggression pact with Hitler just 4 years earlier[2], don't be upset that USSR finally signed its own non-aggression pact with Hitler
non-aggression part was not a problem, the problem was in secret part about cooperation
Poland and no point signed treaty with Hitler to jointly dismember Russia, while Russia signed treaty with Hitler to jointly dismember Poland (and other countries)
And "Lenin et all" included these Polish gentlemen which casts some doubt regarding you claim about "salivating at subjugation of Poland".
>in secret part about cooperation
There is nothing about cooperation in the secret part[0]. Just that Hitler stops at approximately the Curzon Line and doesn't take the territory that Poland grabbed from the corpse of Russian Empire. In fact, Soviet troops didn't move into Poland until German troops stopped advancing.
Your resident propagandists like Solovyov, Dugin and Medvedev are very explicit about invading former warsaw pact countries when they're not threatening Europe with nukes.
> Previous wars with Russia were obnoxious with very bad consequences
They didn't teach you about the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact in your russian school? Of course not, it doesn't fit the great patriotic war narrative. It's about that time when your country's leadership was friendly with the nazis and decided to split eastern europe between themselves.
Previous wars with Russia were obnoxious with very bad consequences, so I dislike idea of even very indirectly funding them.
And I support actions that are harmful to Russian economy, also when they are harmful to me - as long as it is not too badly balanced. As this is much cheaper than directly participating in war.
(I am from Poland)
PS
Yes, I understand that at some point there are some indirect effects that you cannot avoid.
I also understand if for some people paying Kagi that pays tiny fraction of that to Yandex that is paying taxes in Russia which funds their wars is too tenuous connection to care.